NBA playoffs
#11
^I could definitely see the Cavs trying to package the 8th pick and Kevin Love with some other guys to try and get Kawhai but I don't see it happening.
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#12
Lebron did it. 8 straight finals now.
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#13
vesuvius Wrote:Cavs starting line-up for game 7

[Image: DeNwbZoWAAIUyTd.jpg]


:lol:
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#14
Jordan won more championships, but he played on a better team. He let the league in offense and defense more times, but never won with multiple franchises.

It's a tough debate. Lebron's dominance has literally only been stopped by Steph Curry. Without Curry, I don't think there's even a discussion of who's the greatest.
White Girl Connoisseur
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#15
im just happy enough to have witnessed jordan,kobe and lebron in their prime
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#16
This debate ain't hard at all IMO; Jordan by miles and miles.

The athletes are better now but overall skill is way down. I was watching ESPN and FOX Sports 1 last week and many NBA experts had dudes like Simmons and Antetokounmpo in their top 10 of current NBA players. Neither of them have a legit jumper and were easily defended in the playoffs because of it.

Compare that to what would be considered top 10 players during Jordan's time (Magic, Bird, Kareem, Akeem, Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Thomas, Robinson). It's not even close, not to mention the quality of teams in the Eastern Conference during that time (Celtics, Knicks, Magic, Pistons and Pacers).

Labron only had to deal with the Celtics for a short time (3 years) and he only beat them after he formed a super team with Bosh and Wade in Miami. Jordan never played on a super team in Chicago. As great a player as Scottie was he and Rodman were not as good in tandem as Wade and Bosh IMO.

This years run ain't impressive at all to me because the Eastern Conference is as poor as I've ever seen. If either Kyrie or Hayward was available the Cavs would have lost. This is a terrible Cavs squad prevailing in a terrible Eastern Conference. They will be totally destroyed by the Warriors in the finals in four games.

I'm not denying Labron's greatness because he's second to Jordan in the pantheon of non centers in NBA history but his overall individual and team accomplishments don't come close to Jordan's. Jordan's road to greatness was much harder IMHO.
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#17
I think I'll stick to football from now on...
White Girl Connoisseur
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#18
RETMAN Wrote:Labron only had to deal with the Celtics for a short time (3 years) and he only beat them after he formed a super team with Bosh and Wade in Miami. Jordan never played on a super team in Chicago. As great a player as Scottie was he and Rodman were not as good in tandem as Wade and Bosh IMO.
A couple of things.

1. You mention that Jordan never played on a superteam. That is quite debatable. He didn't start winnig until Pippen became an elite SF and his GM Jerry Krause (RIP), who Jordan constantly made fun of (and wil never admit was important), constantly supplied him with fresh talent and got him Phil Jackson as a coach as well(compare that to the coaches LeBron had). On the other hand, when the Heat started getting older, Riley consistently fucked up in regards to adding athleticism and youth. Riley has never been good in drafting, his shtick has always been to get a big name via free agency. As for management in Cleveland, don't even get me started on that.

2. The teams LeBron had during his first run with Cleveland were atrocious. They were filled with old men and younger guys who were bench player quality at best, with the occasional good player. There was no way in hell he was gonna get past the Celtics with those teams. It's no coincidence that the Cavs were a laughingstock in the four years that LeBron was gone, because the organization is poorly run. I was shocked when they ended up winning in 2016.

3. It's true that he joined forces with Wade and Bosh, what you neglect to mention is that Wade was several years past his prime at that point, was almost constantly hurt (including during both championship finals runs) and Bosh, who was meant to be the inside force and rebounder, ended up never averaging 10 rebounds a game and was in fact consistently outrebounded by LeBron. He was also an incredibly shitty defender.

Rodman was not much of a scorer (and extra firepower really wasn't what those bulls needed anyway), but he led the league in rebounds in all 3 seasons he was on the bulls, plus he was one of the best defenders around. Pippen was good for 20 points a night (while sharing with Jordan), was a great passer and was also one of the absolute best defenders in the league, take him off the Bulls, put him in a time machine to today and people will start to wonder if he and Kawhi Leonard are related. You could EASILY call that a super team, not to mention having many solid role players. The only weakness those Bulls teams had (both with Rodman and the other 3 before) was that they didn't have centers and even that didn't matter much because they had rebounding and post defense.

TLDR Nothing wrong with saying Jordan is better, but context and details matter.
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#19
Point taken on Wade but Bosh was an all star 4 and in his prime (20/10 guy). The reason he wasn't better in Miami IMO was because Labron was so ball dominate and wanted to be the primary distributor and scorer which made Bosh a spot up shooter and not the overall complete player he was in Toronto. If Labron let him be what he was he would have had better results not as a miscast 3rd option.

I agree context is important which is why I made the comparison in eras. Jordan's teams before Scottie were terrible which is why they never had success in the playoffs. Labron's first run with the Cavs when he made the finals never had the type of teams Jordan had to face in his era.
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#20
RETMAN Wrote:Point taken on Wade but Bosh was an all star 4 and in his prime (20/10 guy). The reason he wasn't better in Miami IMO was because Labron was so ball dominate and wanted to be the primary distributor and scorer which made Bosh a spot up shooter and not the overall complete player he was in Toronto. If Labron let him be what he was he would have had better results not as a miscast 3rd option.
That in no way explains why he was such a horrible rebounder (for a big man), defender or inside presence in Miami, which was supposed to be the reason he was brought in. The Heat were actually among the absolute worst rebounding teams and that is unacceptable for a max money big man.

Also, off course he was an all-star, the all-star game only cares about scoring and is a fan-based popularity contest. Being a good player is about more than scoring.

Bosh has only been on two all-nba teams in his career. Once for the second team and once for the third, never for the first. Compare that with LeBron's 12 first-team nods. You would think Bosh would get at least one.
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