NBA playoffs
#31
I know you are a Mod and can cut off debate but your points are wrong and you know it. The stats back up everything I said as well as the context I referenced earlier.

To keep changing the debate to prove you are right doesn't aid a healthy discussion.
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#32
RETMAN Wrote:I know you are a Mod and can cut off debate but your points are wrong and you know it. The stats back up everything I said as well as the context I referenced earlier.

To keep changing the debate to prove you are right doesn't aid a healthy discussion.
1. Do you see me deleting posts? No. Bringing the "you are a mod" thing is pretty damn weak and "you know im right" is even worse. Unlike what you may or may not think, I am no tyrant.

2. Do your points explain why Bosh didn't do much in regards to defensive rebounding? No. The clogging the lane thing only works for the offensive side.

3. Do those stats show that Bosh was never much on the offensive rebounding side? Yeah. He is top 100 all-time in defensive rebounding, but nowhere on that list in offensive rebounding. He was also never among the league's best in offensive rebounding while in Toronto. Stats show those too. Never top 10 for a season in total, defensive or offensive rebounds in fact.

4. I didn't actually change debates. I have stuck to defense and rebounding, which Bosh was supposed to provide. A difference from 1.2 to 1.0 blocks is negligable to say the least.

But yeah, I agree that this is not a healthy debate and for the sake of the board I will drop this. As a token of moderator benevolence, I give you free reign to say whatever you want after this post, really get it out of your system, but know that I am done talking about this.
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#33
vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:I know you are a Mod and can cut off debate but your points are wrong and you know it. The stats back up everything I said as well as the context I referenced earlier.

To keep changing the debate to prove you are right doesn't aid a healthy discussion.
1. Do you see me deleting posts? No. Bringing the "you are a mod, yet you know you are wrong" thing is pretty damn weak.

2. Do your points explain why Bosh didn't do much in regards to defensive rebounding? No. The clogging the lane thing only works for the offensive side.

3. Do those stats show that Bosh was never much on the offensive rebounding side? Yeah. He is top 100 all-time in defensive rebounding, but nowhere on that list in offensive rebounding. He was also never among the league's best in offensive rebounding while in Toronto. Stats show those too. Never top 10 for a season in total, defensive or offensive rebounds in fact.

But yeah, I agree that this is not a healthy debate and for the sake of the board I will drop this. I give you free reign to say whatever you want after this post, but know that I am done talking about this.

By any standard measure Chris Bosh was an all star "Big Man" before arriving in Miami. You said he was a poor rebounder but his numbers in Toronto PROVE otherwise. Now you've changed it to offensive rebounding. Anytime a player averages more than a block a game that considered good rim protection. The only thing weak is your argument in this debate so I'm done with it.
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#34
RETMAN Wrote:
vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:I know you are a Mod and can cut off debate but your points are wrong and you know it. The stats back up everything I said as well as the context I referenced earlier.

To keep changing the debate to prove you are right doesn't aid a healthy discussion.
1. Do you see me deleting posts? No. Bringing the "you are a mod, yet you know you are wrong" thing is pretty damn weak.

2. Do your points explain why Bosh didn't do much in regards to defensive rebounding? No. The clogging the lane thing only works for the offensive side.

3. Do those stats show that Bosh was never much on the offensive rebounding side? Yeah. He is top 100 all-time in defensive rebounding, but nowhere on that list in offensive rebounding. He was also never among the league's best in offensive rebounding while in Toronto. Stats show those too. Never top 10 for a season in total, defensive or offensive rebounds in fact.

But yeah, I agree that this is not a healthy debate and for the sake of the board I will drop this. I give you free reign to say whatever you want after this post, but know that I am done talking about this.

By any standard measure Chris Bosh was an all star "Big Man" before arriving in Miami. You said he was a poor rebounder but his numbers in Toronto PROVE otherwise. Now you've changed it to offensive rebounding. Anytime a player averages more than a block a game that considered good rim protection. The only thing weak is your argument in this debate so I'm done with it.
Posting for clarification purposes. What I actually said. From the start.

vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:Labron only had to deal with the Celtics for a short time (3 years) and he only beat them after he formed a super team with Bosh and Wade in Miami. Jordan never played on a super team in Chicago. As great a player as Scottie was he and Rodman were not as good in tandem as Wade and Bosh IMO.
A couple of things.

1. You mention that Jordan never played on a superteam. That is quite debatable. He didn't start winnig until Pippen became an elite SF and his GM Jerry Krause (RIP), who Jordan constantly made fun of (and wil never admit was important), constantly supplied him with fresh talent and got him Phil Jackson as a coach as well(compare that to the coaches LeBron had). On the other hand, when the Heat started getting older, Riley consistently fucked up in regards to adding athleticism and youth. Riley has never been good in drafting, his shtick has always been to get a big name via free agency. As for management in Cleveland, don't even get me started on that.

2. The teams LeBron had during his first run with Cleveland were atrocious. They were filled with old men and younger guys who were bench player quality at best, with the occasional good player. There was no way in hell he was gonna get past the Celtics with those teams. It's no coincidence that the Cavs were a laughingstock in the four years that LeBron was gone, because the organization is poorly run. I was shocked when they ended up winning in 2016.

3. It's true that he joined forces with Wade and Bosh, what you neglect to mention is that Wade was several years past his prime at that point, was almost constantly hurt (including during both championship finals runs) and Bosh, who was meant to be the inside force and rebounder, ended up never averaging 10 rebounds a game and was in fact consistently outrebounded by LeBron. He was also an incredibly shitty defender.

Rodman was not much of a scorer (and extra firepower really wasn't what those bulls needed anyway), but he led the league in rebounds in all 3 seasons he was on the bulls, plus he was one of the best defenders around. Pippen was good for 20 points a night (while sharing with Jordan), was a great passer and was also one of the absolute best defenders in the league, take him off the Bulls, put him in a time machine to today and people will start to wonder if he and Kawhi Leonard are related. You could EASILY call that a super team, not to mention having many solid role players. The only weakness those Bulls teams had (both with Rodman and the other 3 before) was that they didn't have centers and even that didn't matter much because they had rebounding and post defense.

TLDR Nothing wrong with saying Jordan is better, but context and details matter.

vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:Point taken on Wade but Bosh was an all star 4 and in his prime (20/10 guy). The reason he wasn't better in Miami IMO was because Labron was so ball dominate and wanted to be the primary distributor and scorer which made Bosh a spot up shooter and not the overall complete player he was in Toronto. If Labron let him be what he was he would have had better results not as a miscast 3rd option.
That in no way explains why he was such a horrible rebounder (for a big man), defender or inside presence in Miami, which was supposed to be the reason he was brought in. The Heat were actually among the absolute worst rebounding teams and that is unacceptable for a max money big man.

Also, off course he was an all-star, the all-star game only cares about scoring and is a fan-based popularity contest. Being a good player is about more than scoring.

Bosh has only been on two all-nba teams in his career. Once for the second team and once for the third, never for the first. Compare that with LeBron's 12 first-team nods. You would think Bosh would get at least one.
If you can locate where I said Bosh was a poor rebounder in Toronto, I am more than willing to apologize.
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#35
vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:Labron never had a low post option because he likes to drive to get most of his points and assists. A big man clogging the lane would restrict Labron from being a primary scorer.

All of Bosh's numbers were smaller after he came to Miami. He was a much better rebounder and shot blocker in Toronto because he played closer to the basket which he did not in Miami. He was a big man in Toronto but was reduced to a wing in Miami and played like one.
Again, not a good comparison, because A. Bosh was never a good offensive rebounder, almost all of them came on the defensive.

B. The clogging thing would only apply to getting offensive rebounds, not defensive ones.

You say that it wouldn't work because LeBron liked to drive to the basket, but while he was in Miami he became more of a post-move guy, like Jordan did in his second run with the Bulls and it didn't stop Rodman from leading the league in rebounds.

You mention that Bosh was a better shotblocker in Toronto. This is false. he averaged 1 block during his time with LeBron and 1.4 was the absolute highest he ever got for a season. Also, being an inside presence on the defensive is about a lot more than blocking, it's about overall defense, the rim, guarding the paint, etcetera.

It must be good to be a Mod because a lot of your comments are new/revised and don't show edits. :lol:
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#36
RETMAN Wrote:
vesuvius Wrote:
RETMAN Wrote:Labron never had a low post option because he likes to drive to get most of his points and assists. A big man clogging the lane would restrict Labron from being a primary scorer.

All of Bosh's numbers were smaller after he came to Miami. He was a much better rebounder and shot blocker in Toronto because he played closer to the basket which he did not in Miami. He was a big man in Toronto but was reduced to a wing in Miami and played like one.
Again, not a good comparison, because A. Bosh was never a good offensive rebounder, almost all of them came on the defensive.

B. The clogging thing would only apply to getting offensive rebounds, not defensive ones.

You say that it wouldn't work because LeBron liked to drive to the basket, but while he was in Miami he became more of a post-move guy, like Jordan did in his second run with the Bulls and it didn't stop Rodman from leading the league in rebounds.

You mention that Bosh was a better shotblocker in Toronto. This is false. he averaged 1 block during his time with LeBron and 1.4 was the absolute highest he ever got for a season. Also, being an inside presence on the defensive is about a lot more than blocking, it's about overall defense, the rim, guarding the paint, etcetera.

Ii must be good to be a Mod because a lot of your comments are new/revised and don't show edits. :lol:
1. I haven't actually gone back to change older posts. If I made a change, it's only to the newest one.

2. If I made things confusing, my apologies. I understand it can be annoying...as you did the same thing. :lol:

We disagree, s'all good.
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