Alright you mother fuckers, lets have this Age Of Consent thing out...
#31
(10-28-2018, 09:37 PM)imperiusrex Wrote: Ok. I'll address two points then go to bed.

I do think the argument that having the freedom to have sex at an earlier age is part of the reason that some Europeans are better at school, etc is a false one
. There are so many other factors including their education model, school structure and approach to learning that are simply so much better than the US that you can't compare the two and assign this one factor, the sexual freedom and responsibility for their bodies as the overarching reason they perform better. Many charter school kids do much better than average Americans in public school and they are under the same laws here.

And your desire for a scientific study is here in Psychology Today. Doesn't say early sex is bad, but some kids aren't ready for it yet and if they are susceptible to other issues i.e. drug abuse, depression, etc. they can all be exacerbated to some degree.  
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/...having-sex

Yeah, it's fucking late. I'm not going to have time to get to crocious.

Here's the thing: I didn't say this. I never said that having sex at a young age made girls better at school. What I said was that it didn't hurt them in school, and that having more freedom at a young age made them more mature. I doubt that maturity is why they have better test scores, it's probably down to better schools, infrastructure, parental involvement, etc.

The point I was making about outcomes is that the primary impetus for these laws is that the sex itself is harmful. But that can't be proven, and is in fact refuted by more successful young people living in societies with lower ages of consent.

But you brought up the elephant in the room. I was wondering who would: the opinions of psychologists. And here's where this discussion gets really interesting because contrary to popular belief: PSYCHOLOGY IS NOT SCIENCE.

More tomorrow, I got an early morning.
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#32
You want a scientific argument. fine I will give you one. but let's take a step back from focusing on the sexual maturation of the lower extremities and shift our perspective north to the Brain.

It has been proven by many peer reviewed studies that the frontal cortex of the Brain as far as decision making does not fully develop until about 25 in most human brains. here is one such study for example 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/

Why is this important? because you can not truly make sound decisions without the full capacity to weigh risk and reward and or consequence. 

When it comes to the question of sex. A child brain is simply NOT capable of weighing all of the potential trepidation that comes from sex. So the question then becomes how can a child brain be capable of giving concent if it doesn't really understand what it is giving concent to. And sex without informed Concent is Rape. 
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#33
(10-29-2018, 02:34 AM)ir-prince Wrote: You want a scientific argument. fine I will give you one. but let's take a step back from focusing on the sexual maturation of the lower extremities and shift our perspective north to the Brain.

It has been proven by many peer reviewed studies that the frontal cortex of the Brain as far as decision making does not fully develop until about 25 in most human brains. here is one such study for example 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892678/

Why is this important? because you can not truly make sound decisions without the full capacity to weigh risk and reward and or consequence. 

When it comes to the question of sex. A child brain is simply NOT capable of weighing all of the potential trepidation that comes from sex. So the question then becomes how can a child brain be capable of giving concent if it doesn't really understand what it is giving concent to. And sex without informed Concent is Rape. 

So are you saying people can't consent until they are 25?
Are you counting a 24 year old as a child?
If a 22 year old cannot consent to sex, does this mean if a 22 year old and a 19 year old have sex, they've raped each other, what about two 16 year olds?  See how ridiculous your argument is?
Before rape use to be that if 1 person said no and the other forced it, it was rape.  Then it was if one person got the other person unconscious and forced it, it was rape.  Now it is unless the other person says yes, and is of equal, power and status, and similar age but not under 25 it is rape, o but with a special exemption for the intoxicated. Soon sex will be rape in some people's mind.
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#34
(10-28-2018, 05:34 PM)thomroyal Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:55 PM)jeff2 Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:43 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:38 PM)jeff2 Wrote: When you say "teenagers" how old are they. Also how old are the people having sex with these "teenagers".

Ok, first parameter: I advocate for a European age of consent, which in Germany is 14.

And no, I don't advocate for any silly "Romeo and Juliet" close-in-age exceptions. If she's old enough to fuck, she's old enough to fuck. Period.


So you are ok with a 40+ year old dude having sex with a 14 year old girl....

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The law forbidding sex with anyone under 18 is in place to protect minors from being manipulated for sex. Not necessarily because the act of sex with a minor is immoral.

That age gap only seems creepy because that's how we, the general population, has chosen to interpret the law and incorporate it into the way we think.

Sex + minor = jail
Jail = bad
Ergo,
Sex + minor = bad

But if that law were to change tomorrow, so would the opinions of two thirds of the population.

Ok, I'll bite, where are the laws to protect ADULTS from being manipulated for sex.  Where are the anit-gold digging laws to prevent men from being manipulated into sex by gold diggers who bankrupt them with bastard children?
The laws forbidding sex with minors came into being from WHITE WOMEN TEMPERANCE movements, who were angry, because white women often age like milk, and look 45 at age 29, so their white husbands who married them at 18, would run off with a 14 year old in another town while the white man still had his good looks and money at 29, and the white woman had 7 kids and no looks and couldn't work.

The US was  a fucked up place back in the 1700s and 1600s.  White guys were just up and abandoning their families and running off with teenage brides.  And this wasn't just like broke as trailer trash white dudes, Sam Houston, the founder of Houston and very prominent white men were doing this.  It became a crisis that is why child support became a jailable offence. White women with their 8 kids bitched to the law makers, who quickly realized, fatherless packs of white kids become criminals (wild west) and drain the public purse.  It had nothing to do with any real morality, except white women policing when men's dick.
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#35
(10-28-2018, 10:05 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 09:37 PM)imperiusrex Wrote: Ok. I'll address two points then go to bed.

I do think the argument that having the freedom to have sex at an earlier age is part of the reason that some Europeans are better at school, etc is a false one
. There are so many other factors including their education model, school structure and approach to learning that are simply so much better than the US that you can't compare the two and assign this one factor, the sexual freedom and responsibility for their bodies as the overarching reason they perform better. Many charter school kids do much better than average Americans in public school and they are under the same laws here.

And your desire for a scientific study is here in Psychology Today. Doesn't say early sex is bad, but some kids aren't ready for it yet and if they are susceptible to other issues i.e. drug abuse, depression, etc. they can all be exacerbated to some degree.  
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/...having-sex

Yeah, it's fucking late. I'm not going to have time to get to crocious.

Here's the thing: I didn't say this. I never said that having sex at a young age made girls better at school. What I said was that it didn't hurt them in school, and that having more freedom at a young age made them more mature. I doubt that maturity is why they have better test scores, it's probably down to better schools, infrastructure, parental involvement, etc.

The point I was making about outcomes is that the primary impetus for these laws is that the sex itself is harmful. But that can't be proven, and is in fact refuted by more successful young people living in societies with lower ages of consent.

But you brought up the elephant in the room. I was wondering who would: the opinions of psychologists. And here's where this discussion gets really interesting because contrary to popular belief: PSYCHOLOGY IS NOT SCIENCE.

More tomorrow, I got an early morning.

I think you're splitting the finest of hairs here; you're saying it made them more mature and didn't hurt them, so either it is of no help in which case there's no need for the argument because it's not a positive or a negative- it's a neutral and of no consequence, or it did help them in which case my point stands.

As to whether psychology is a science well you can find arguments either way (and many of those same people will also argue that medicine and technology are not sciences either...) but most people agree it does use scientific data to arrive it at it conclusions and interpretation is the real issue, but we're dealing with humans and they are not an exact science.

In any case, Germany seems pretty chill with a lot of weird shit. They admit in this following story that they are morally repulsed by incest and a huge age difference in sexual partners but they don't prosecute it, so you're likely correct that there's precious little data that shows that physical and biological issues are the issue here, but we are moral societies and there seem to be some lines that cause a pretty widespread issue and sex with children that are psychological in their roots and we can't exclude simply because you only purely scientific data. By that barometer, you could approve rape (How? Simple, if you are a genetically fit, high sperm count male, by biology you are the best chance to propagate the species and you should inseminate as many matching women as possible, even if they don't want to have sex with you because scientifically it's in the best interests of the species. You're just following science and it's perfectly justifiable, biologically speaking.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...94656.html
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#36
(10-28-2018, 06:48 PM)newbob Wrote: It's hilarious how you keep telling other dudes to "grow some balls", when you clearly don't have the balls to admit you only started this thread to get out your frustrations about not being able to fuck young girls and not be looked at as a fucking creep.

So a faggot can fuck another faggot and is not a creep, but an older man can fuck a younger woman and is a creep?
The whole argument of the high age of consent people is young people don't understand the consequences of sex.  So it is better to allow two young people who don't understand the consequences of sex to fuck, than to allow 1 person who does understand the consequence to fuck another person who doesn't?  Better to have two people not knowing what they are doing than just 1, then you wonder why teen pregnancy is so high in America compared to Germany and France.

We live in a fucked up world.
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#37
My response was not it's ok because its the law. You asked if I would be ok with my Father going to jail for sleeping with my mother when she was 14. The answer is No I wouldn't be ok with it, but the question remains the same, does the benefit of breaking the law outweigh the consequences? Doesn't really matter whether I am ok with it.

And the other point I tried to make, apparently inartfully, is that because all 14 year olds don't have the same intellect or maturity level, society has to get arbitrary to protect the ones who shouldn't be making this decision at this age. That's arguably society's job and the purpose for rules, to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Unfortunately it covers those who may be able to make an informed decision.

As to European girls being more mature than americans, I cannot argue against sweeping statements like that because I am certain that they are not the case. There are some exceptions even in europe I am sure. The only generalization I will ever make is that asian folks are not good drivers.

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#38
(10-28-2018, 04:55 PM)jeff2 Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:43 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:38 PM)jeff2 Wrote: When you say "teenagers" how old are they. Also how old are the people having sex with these "teenagers".

Ok, first parameter: I advocate for a European age of consent, which in Germany is 14.

And no, I don't advocate for any silly "Romeo and Juliet" close-in-age exceptions. If she's old enough to fuck, she's old enough to fuck. Period.


So you are ok with a 40+ year old dude having sex with a 14 year old girl....

[Image: giphy.gif]

Is it worse for a 14 year old to fuck a 40 year old or a 50, 60, 70, 80, etc year old to fuck an 18 year old? Is an 18 year old THAT much mature than a 14 year old? And do people magicallly stop maturing, getting better at manipulating younger people after 40? If you talk to a 60 year old or 70 or 80, etc they will tell you a 40 year old is a kid.
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#39
(10-28-2018, 05:34 PM)thomroyal Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:55 PM)jeff2 Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:43 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(10-28-2018, 04:38 PM)jeff2 Wrote: When you say "teenagers" how old are they. Also how old are the people having sex with these "teenagers".

Ok, first parameter: I advocate for a European age of consent, which in Germany is 14.

And no, I don't advocate for any silly "Romeo and Juliet" close-in-age exceptions. If she's old enough to fuck, she's old enough to fuck. Period.


So you are ok with a 40+ year old dude having sex with a 14 year old girl....

[Image: giphy.gif]

The law forbidding sex with anyone under 18 is in place to protect minors from being manipulated for sex. Not necessarily because the act of sex with a minor is immoral.

That age gap only seems creepy because that's how we, the general population, has chosen to interpret the law and incorporate it into the way we think.

Sex + minor = jail
Jail = bad
Ergo,
Sex + minor = bad

But if that law were to change tomorrow, so would the opinions of two thirds of the population.

1.) That implies that 18 year olds can't be manipulated for sex, which we all know is false. In fact, 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds, etc can all be manipulated for sex.

2.) You're actually incorrect on the age of 18. More states have an age of consent of 16 or 17 than they do 18. 18 is an arbitrary number decided by a marginal amount of states in the U.S., never mind most countries in the world.
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#40
(10-28-2018, 06:22 PM)un57 Wrote: In my opinion, the real problem with such an age gap (14 & 40) is that it presents an inherent power imbalance favoring the adult. Adults already have considerably more rights and power in society than minors, and for good reason: minors aren't considered old enough to always exercise good judgment in certain scenarios. Sex itself is essentially a power dynamic between two individuals, so when you combine that with the power and authority an adult wields over a minor, I think the potential for abuse is very real (I don't just mean abuse of a sexual nature). In spirit, I have nothing against two consenting individuals doing whatever feels good to them, but in practice I don't think most 14 year olds are in a position to fully understand the ramifications of of such choices.

But that begs the question, do you believe most 18 year olds are? This brings me back to 25 years of age being when the frontal lobe cortex (the decision-making part of the brain) is fully developed in men. By your logic, 40 year olds shouldn't be allowed to fuck 18 year olds (or anyone under 25 since they aren't yet fully developed and at peak capability of making decisions). We should raise the adult age from 18 to 25, should we not? And who's to say that you don't become better at making decisions beyond that due to experience, which you are constantly gaining anyways? I have a friend who believes you should only be allowed to vote once you are 60 and that everyone below that is too young and unwise. 80 year olds literally tell 50 year olds they are children. There is always going to a power dynamic no matter what age you make it.
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