Alabama and several other states curbing abortion
#1
Its been all the talk in the news lately, and it appears several states are trying to ban or severely limit abortion hoping to get a challenge that heads to the conservative supreme court before Trump likely loses in 2020 and it flips back to being liberal.

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional...OPBJ1SqmK/

My question is what are your guys thoughts on this whole abortion ban thing?
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#2
I'm a Christian. Even went to an evangelical college. I believe Abortion is a necessary evil, and the vast majority of women do it begrudgingly. These laws are a last ditch power play by the old and dying "Religious Right", whose ideals are losing mindshare everyday. Millennial Christians are even dropping the evangelical label. Its essentially Evangelical Sharia law.
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#3
These so-called "Christians" don't even believe in science.  So how are they going to make an excuse like this?  I'll tell you why.  Because they're all full of shit. 

Know your damn role and shut your goddamn mouth!

[Image: giphy.gif]
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#4
I don't think Trump will lose in 2020 given the economic approval rating as the better indicator to election chances. Regardless of him winning or losing, I don't think he will have any impact. Up next the supreme court will decide wether Alabama's decision is constitutional or not. If not, it will get struck down and decades old debate is likely over.
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#5
(05-23-2019, 09:45 AM)joeman Wrote: I don't think Trump will lose in 2020 given the economic approval rating as the better indicator to election chances.  Regardless of him winning or losing, I don't think he will have any impact.  Up next the supreme court will decide wether Alabama's decision is constitutional or not.  If not, it will get struck down and decades old debate is likely over.

The only way Trump loses is if no one shows up like they did in 2016.  There won't be Hillary, there are plenty of good candidates and the American people know that this economy is an extension of Obama policies. We won't have any effect of what Trump has done for another three to five years.  Republicans know the clock is running out and need to do this.  Once done, Trump will have served his purpose and they'll drop him like a bad habit. Many people forget, Trump won three states by a total of 77,000 votes. That's the attendance of Lambeau Field. It won't be as easy in 2020 without Russian and Wikileaks help.
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#6
(05-23-2019, 11:55 AM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 09:45 AM)joeman Wrote: I don't think Trump will lose in 2020 given the economic approval rating as the better indicator to election chances.  Regardless of him winning or losing, I don't think he will have any impact.  Up next the supreme court will decide wether Alabama's decision is constitutional or not.  If not, it will get struck down and decades old debate is likely over.

You can't be that naive. 

Of course it won't be over. A majority of Americans favor legal abortion. Overturning Roe will just lead to a more intense fight for Supreme Court seats.

The proper thing to do for the supreme court is to overturn Alabama's new abortion law because it is unconstitutional.  The supreme court does not need to revisit Roe vs. Wade every single time whenever a state is trying to change its abortion law.  The supreme court can look at it whenever there is a good reason to, such as new scientific evidence and etc, regardless of what the states are doing. 
But at the same time " A majority of Americans favor legal abortion" should have zero impact on the court's decision.  Human rights issues cannot be determined based on populism.  It has to be determined based on sound legal conclusions assisted by the most advanced moral principles up to date.  Otherwise, a country can simply reinstate slavery if there is a majority of people favoring it.  
Even if Alabama's decision is unheld just for argument's sake, there is nothing that prevents someone to just drive across the state to have an abortion or leave the country even. 
Abortion ban will only punish those who cannot afford to pay for a long trip.
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#7
(05-24-2019, 12:47 PM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 09:12 AM)joeman Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 11:55 AM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 09:45 AM)joeman Wrote: I don't think Trump will lose in 2020 given the economic approval rating as the better indicator to election chances.  Regardless of him winning or losing, I don't think he will have any impact.  Up next the supreme court will decide wether Alabama's decision is constitutional or not.  If not, it will get struck down and decades old debate is likely over.

You can't be that naive. 

Of course it won't be over. A majority of Americans favor legal abortion. Overturning Roe will just lead to a more intense fight for Supreme Court seats.

The proper thing to do for the supreme court is to overturn Alabama's new abortion law because it is unconstitutional.  The supreme court does not need to revisit Roe vs. Wade every single time whenever a state is trying to change its abortion law.  The supreme court can look at it whenever there is a good reason to, such as new scientific evidence and etc, regardless of what the states are doing. 
But at the same time " A majority of Americans favor legal abortion" should have zero impact on the court's decision.  Human rights issues cannot be determined based on populism.  It has to be determined based on sound legal conclusions assisted by the most advanced moral principles up to date.  Otherwise, a country can simply reinstate slavery if there is a majority of people favoring it.  
Even if Alabama's decision is unheld just for argument's sake, there is nothing that prevents someone to just drive across the state to have an abortion or leave the country even. 
Abortion ban will only punish those who cannot afford to pay for a long trip.

I misunderstood you, and you misunderstood me. 

I thought you were saying Roe would be overturned. You meant the Alabama law. So, my mistake. 

You thought I meant majority opinion should rule the courts. What I meant was that if  Roe was to be overturned then the political fight to restore it would begin immediately because the majority of people support legal abortion. 

We just missed each other.
I've been looking at many polls in the last week, most Americans do support abortion, but most Americans also seem to support some restrictions on it as well.  The real question may not be if Roe is completely overturned but how low will the supreme court allow the abortion ban to be in weeks 2,4,8, 16 etc.  Then again with 2 new very conservative pro life judges, a complete overturn may not be out of the question.

While the house would almost immediately pass a law to restore abortion rights, Cocaine Mitch is unlikely to let that fly no?
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#8
(05-24-2019, 09:12 AM)joeman Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 11:55 AM)Shotgun Styles Wrote:
(05-23-2019, 09:45 AM)joeman Wrote: I don't think Trump will lose in 2020 given the economic approval rating as the better indicator to election chances.  Regardless of him winning or losing, I don't think he will have any impact.  Up next the supreme court will decide wether Alabama's decision is constitutional or not.  If not, it will get struck down and decades old debate is likely over.

You can't be that naive. 

Of course it won't be over. A majority of Americans favor legal abortion. Overturning Roe will just lead to a more intense fight for Supreme Court seats.

The proper thing to do for the supreme court is to overturn Alabama's new abortion law because it is unconstitutional.  The supreme court does not need to revisit Roe vs. Wade every single time whenever a state is trying to change its abortion law.  The supreme court can look at it whenever there is a good reason to, such as new scientific evidence and etc, regardless of what the states are doing. 
But at the same time " A majority of Americans favor legal abortion" should have zero impact on the court's decision.  Human rights issues cannot be determined based on populism.  It has to be determined based on sound legal conclusions assisted by the most advanced moral principles up to date.  Otherwise, a country can simply reinstate slavery if there is a majority of people favoring it.  
Even if Alabama's decision is unheld just for argument's sake, there is nothing that prevents someone to just drive across the state to have an abortion or leave the country even. 
Abortion ban will only punish those who cannot afford to pay for a long trip.

Roe v Wade court decision viewed abortion as an infringement of privacy rights.  However, privacy rights have been substantially eroded since the 1960s.  I would question if the same conservatives who have massively eroded privacy rights in almost every other issue at the top courts from warrantless wiretaps and warrantless searches and fisa courts, and all kinds of privacy violation, I doubt they will view state sanctioned abortion bans as privacy violations anymore.

 Also what do you make of the counter arguments?

Has the science not advanced since the 1969 when McCorvey got pregnant?

Alabama could pass a law making it a crime to leave the state and obtain an abortion or something to that extent.  Similar to how we seen the states behave with murders carried out in foreign jurisdictions with weak laws.  They will simply claim you planned part of your abortion (murder) in Alabama before you left and as such they can try you under state law.
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#9
I've mostly stopped arguing my views on abortion (I'm pro-life) because it's pointless, the entire argument is based on what people chose to believe. It's like making laws based on peoples favorite flavor of ice cream. One side believes pregnancy is a human life and terminating it is murder and the other side believes it isn't a human yet so terminating it is just a medical procedure.

The only argument that I find ridiculous is the rape and incest exceptions. Rape is one of the worst things a human can do to another human and rape of a family member is ten times worse than that. However, if the argument against abortion is that it is a human life how does that change if life was brought into existence through rape or incest? Either it's killing a person or it isn't the circumstance (no matter how bleak and disgusting) of the conception is irrelevant.

Agree or disagree about abortion rights but the exceptions make no sense.
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